Curse

Space · Dec 13, 2010, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

Your chances of being caught are slim. And the only time it is ever really caught is when people are farming champ points because they end up on obs if they are in top 100. Low end guilds (the ones who would be doing that for zkeys) will never appear on obs and therefore will never be caught.

People abusing an easily abusable system? who'd have thunk it! Those unscrupulous men of no morals, is there no low to which they will swoop?

I'm sitting on the side of - it's great that they are looking at encouraging gvg, however if you entice people with shiny things you will inevitably end up with players not in it for the long run when they can get said shiny thing a lot quicker via PvE (be that drops or through buying it with PvE gold).

PvEers like titles right? Maybe a gvg related title not linked to rating? Then the pvpers can gvg for the sake of gvg and the pvers can gvg to show off something to their buddies.

Boogz · Dec 13, 2010, 07:57 PM // 19:57

GvG/HA are shut down to newcomers, specially HA.
last time I tried to make a BYOB party at HA i got whispers "go back to PvE, noob".

Sorry but I have given up on HA, the format needs a major rework to be attractive again

ogre_jd · Dec 13, 2010, 09:46 PM // 21:46

The HA format is fine. What needs a major rework is the attitudes of its regulars.

Cyannasi · Dec 13, 2010, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

Yet somehow every single person playing high end started off in the "Blind leading the blind" situation, as you put it. It is the answer. It is what was always the answer. No one ever got to where they were because top players led them there. They played in a group with noobs, got better, and suddenly they aren't noobs anymore. If you don't want to put up with the losing and the learning, then PvP isn't for you and you aren't the person that these updates and outreaches are targeting. The people these updates and outreaches are targeting, are the people who can handle losing and are willing to learn.

Yes, that about describes it. I'm curious about PvP, but I'm not dedicated to it. I never will be dedicated to it. I'd like to do it for fun here and there between my regular PvE gaming, but I know that means a future of perpetual losing. For that reason, I won't even give it a try.

I've see several fingers being shaken at those of us who aren't willing to put up with weeks and months of getting clobbered necessary, in order to learn what we need to learn to be competitive. Paying your dues is actually pretty fair if PvP is your bread and butter, but it's also a very effective deterrent to those of us for which PvP will only ever be a casual experience. Oops, now I've done it. I used the "C" word. But that really is the core of the problem, isn't it? PvPers want more warm bodies to compete against, but the only warm bodies around aren't interested in being beaten like a rented mule every time they step into PvP, because they're only doing it for fun.

I really don't see a solution to this since the hardcore PvPers can't be expected to pull their punches just to give day traders like myself a chance to taste victory. But being nothing but a punching bag pretty much guarantees that I won't be back for additional punishment. It just isn't worth the time and effort for me.

It's a shame that there aren't tiers where individuals of comparable skill and experience could compete with each other before getting sent to the show. Kind of like a farm league. At least then, people like me would have a chance to win now and then while those that excel get moved up to the next tier. Having never PvPed in GW, this may even exist now. But judging from what I've read, it doesn't sound like it.

NerfHerder · Dec 13, 2010, 10:24 PM // 22:24

I dont think rewards will help get PvE players into structured PvP like GvG. Mainly because its too structured. And requires a certain.... mindset. Although, I am gald to hear PvP players are getting a treat for doing what they like to do. You win! Here's a cookie!

tealspikes · Dec 13, 2010, 11:20 PM // 23:20

To entice a playerbase that is accustomed to being rewarded every time they play, the reward cannot be only for winning, but for trying and participating. Between the logistics of getting 8 people into gvg and all the smurfing/pugging going on, actually killing a guild lord will be a rare event for your average newcommer.

Mireles · Dec 14, 2010, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by infi

zzz i play 2 or 3 times in a week and i am in a good guild. what did i do wrong?

i want to add some info about highranked smurfs which roll everyone above top 500. Tell me who are they because i never saw them.
Its like when you can up to 1200+ rating by winning 10 matches (?) why do you need to stay above it. At this rating you get champs and another rewards not only rewards.
Most of the time 1200+ rating guilds play in top 200 and against top 10-400. So whats the problem? Hightranked smurfs hardly meet any lowranked guilds.

My conclusion is that everyone who tell this lies and rarely plays ladder.

1. Just because your in a good guild doesn't make you good.
2. Just because you don't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist... people make new guilds all the time.
3. "Never" might of been the wrong word to use, but if my conclusion was a "lie" the guild wars population breakdown wouldn't be so drastically in favor of PvE.

infi · Dec 15, 2010, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

1. Just because your in a good guild doesn't make you good.
2. Just because you don't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist... people make new guilds all the time.
3. "Never" might of been the wrong word to use, but if my conclusion was a "lie" the guild wars population breakdown wouldn't be so drastically in favor of PvE.

1. Ok i am not good, doesnt matter. But do you remember the core gw concept skill>time? When you became good nothing gonna change it. The best example is [rawr] which played 3 times in a month and won goldcapes.
I can list you guilds which dont play too often right now: [est] (goldcape), [awsm] (aka [dirt] aka everlasing silvertrim), [SoSo] (goldcape+silver american mix), [sup] (goldcape last month), [yawn] (silvertrim) etc etc etc.

And they are not even play ladder. Only at's. How do they influence on low-end gvg scene i have no idea.

2. Its just a common sence man, nothing else. Smurfs form in tree ways: kill spear time between at rounds, play at's without any hurting to a main guild, random fun in ladder.

The firt and second doesnt influence low-end gvg at all. The third type of smurfs forms only for fun but there is lack of it under 1100+ raiting. This guilds cant do anything to beat top smurfs.

Evil smurfs exist only in your mind. Nobody from top teams try to roll you in ZQ day.
Most of the time misunderstanding comes from matches where few top players guest for low raiting guilds.
It is easy to say "grrrr, a top smurf. we cant do anything!" than actually play better.

3. Your conclusion is wrong because Arena changed their focus to PvE. They rewarded PvE with last 2 compainings and EoTN, didnt host any serious tournaments, stopped improving of GvG and ended any marketing advertisement for a PvP side of the game.

I guess it was done for money. Maintain a PvP game is much more harder than make casual PvE content.

Mireles · Dec 15, 2010, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by infi

1. Ok i am not good, doesnt matter. But do you remember the core gw concept skill>time? When you became good nothing gonna change it. The best example is [rawr] which played 3 times in a month and won goldcapes.
I can list you guilds which dont play too often right now: [est] (goldcape), [awsm] (aka [dirt] aka everlasing silvertrim), [SoSo] (goldcape+silver american mix), [sup] (goldcape last month), [yawn] (silvertrim) etc etc etc.

And they are not even play ladder. Only at's. How do they influence on low-end gvg scene i have no idea.

2. Its just a common sence man, nothing else. Smurfs form in tree ways: kill spear time between at rounds, play at's without any hurting to a main guild, random fun in ladder.

The firt and second doesnt influence low-end gvg at all. The third type of smurfs forms only for fun but there is lack of it under 1100+ raiting. This guilds cant do anything to beat top smurfs.

Evil smurfs exist only in your mind. Nobody from top teams try to roll you in ZQ day.
Most of the time misunderstanding comes from matches where few top players guest for low raiting guilds.
It is easy to say "grrrr, a top smurf. we cant do anything!" than actually play better.

3. Your conclusion is wrong because Arena changed their focus to PvE. They rewarded PvE with last 2 compainings and EoTN, didnt host any serious tournaments, stopped improving of GvG and ended any marketing advertisement for a PvP side of the game.

I guess it was done for money. Maintain a PvP game is much more harder than make casual PvE content.

1. I find it very hard to believe that you know exactly how often guilds and their members play monthly and what everyone one of them does to practice and prepare for ATs...

2. I didn't say anything about evil smurfs much less know what or who you are referring to... "trimmed" caped guilds usually sold for trim or go full on pve threw selling invites to have the people that accomplished the trim make new guild with a new rating to repeat the process... Experienced players make new guilds to get a new rating all the time..

3. and your third point is invalid... playing pve and pvp is not mutually elusive by game play or purchase, there is no reason people CAN'T play both, they just choose not to for whatever reason.... to blame anet for "rewarding pve" with brand new campaigns is just short sighted, because pvp formats received new content threw new skills, the former use of heroes for those formats, themed maps, and guild halls ect ect... and arena net has always hosted tournaments... its just participation is at a all time low, so Anet will focus on what the majority of their fans have chosen and want from them.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with high end PvP people can enjoy guild wars like a sport... there has actually been some good real world money in it... its just most people don't want to come home from work/school and have to spend a lot of time and effort to organize a team and practice just so they have a competitive chance when pve is there and ready to go.... therefor is why the guild wars population overwhelmingly favors pve over pvp.

You have yet to explain why people choose pve and exclude pvp by choice when both are available. Which is the whole point of my argument you seem to want to dismiss as false with rambling situational variables about what may happen in GvG scenarios. You ask people why they don't PvP... they don't say its because "Arena changed their focus to PvE. They rewarded PvE with last 2 compainings and EoTN" they give answers relating to rank discrimination, the high barriers to play pvp competitively, or the attitude of the pvp community. Which are all products of a highly competitive non-casual format environments... just look around and the pvp flame forums on this site.

which brings me back to the topic of the thread...

Stacking "valuable" end match rewards does nothing to address these discouragements... If you want to blame Anet for something you can blame them for not directly addressing the issues the PvE fan base has with PvP

Artisan Archer · Dec 15, 2010, 10:40 AM // 10:40

There are actually a bunch of guilds that smurf at around 1000-1050 rating ([KinG] & [sqd] come to mind with a zillion smurfs), they might not be the top 50, but even a top 300 smurf will basically always beat rank 500-2k guilds (newcomers).

Missing HB · Dec 15, 2010, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Smurfing wouldn't be a problem though if there were many more players ( as in HB for example). Fun quests such as winning a GvG using xx build , killing all npcs in a GvG fight , etc instead of making 50 tot bags leading to massive farming could eventually make some more players come.....
But anyway at this point , i don't know how to prevent smurfing and to make more new players come....

infi · Dec 15, 2010, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

1. I find it very hard to believe that you know exactly how often guilds and their members play monthly and what everyone one of them does to practice and prepare for ATs...

2. I didn't say anything about evil smurfs much less know what or who you are referring to... "trimmed" caped guilds usually sold for trim or go full on pve threw selling invites to have the people that accomplished the trim make new guild with a new rating to repeat the process...

3. and your third point is invalid... playing pve and pvp is not mutually elusive by game play or purchase, there is no reason people CAN'T play both, they just choose not to for whatever reason.... to blame anet for "rewarding pve" with brand new campaigns is just short sighted, because pvp formats received new content threw new skills, the former use of heroes for those formats, themed maps, and guild halls ect ect... and arena net has always hosted tournaments... its just participation is at a all time low, so Anet will focus on what the majority of their fans have chosen and want from them.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with high end PvP people can enjoy guild wars like a sport... there has actually been some good real world money in it... its just most people don't want to come home from work/school and have to spend a lot of time and effort to organize a team and practice just so they have a competitive chance when pve is there and ready to go.... therefor is why the guild wars population overwhelmingly favors pve over pvp.

You have yet to explain why people choose pve and exclude pvp by choice when both are available. Which is the whole point of my argument you seem to want to dismiss as false with rambling situational variables about what may happen in GvG scenarios. You ask people why they don't PvP... they don't say its because "Arena changed their focus to PvE. They rewarded PvE with last 2 compainings and EoTN" they give answers relating to rank discrimination, the high barriers to play pvp competitively, or the attitude of the pvp community. Which are all products of a highly competitive non-casual format environments... just look around and the pvp flame forums on this site.

which brings me back to the topic of the thread...

stacking "valuable" end match rewards does nothing to address these discouragements...

1. You may not believe me but that is exactly as i said. I played for [est] and [dirt] in the past and know 5 of sup's members very well. I also know atleast 1 perosn from [yawn]. In addition, i actually play ats or observ them and know when and how guilds play.
It counts for americans too. Their timezone and activity of GvG playerbase is even weaker. Thats why they play like 2-3 times in a month.

2. Nobody sells gold trim guilds now. That time has gone. I meant that nobody from top guilds or players got to smurf to roll guilds under 1100 raiting because as i said before it's pointless and isn't fun.

3. Current situation is exactly same as you mentioned because arena isn't positioning their game as PvP one. People come into guild wars to play casual PvE and when PvP is so much competitive they refuse to play it because players need casual PvP in a PvE game. That is what arena made for the game.
When a player buy Guild Wars he dont go to play original GWPvP because arena positions this game as a PvE one. GvG community needs newcomers with right mindset first of all not an average PvE player.

Simple example - when i am looking for a new PvP game i wont look on guild wars because i wont find any information about amazing and competitive PvP here. So i wont buy it. And they dont say any word about PvP since Celestial.

All arena have to do release full PvP Kit and add it to their store. Then regulary host some tourney with divisions as it was in rawr cup. And finally add to their RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing site and dvd box advertisement about highly competitive PvP with at's, monthly tournaments, any other tournaments and in game prizes.

Thats how we can get right people with right mindset which will play for competition and not for rewards.

Thats why i think another thread in this section is pointless. You wont get casual pvers to competitive format unless you dump it to the grownd of casualness.

*lemming* · Dec 15, 2010, 11:44 AM // 11:44

People far exaggerate the amount of smurfing that goes on at the sub-1100 rating range.

Hint: having guests from guilds people might recognize does not mean it's a smurf. That's just a common rationalization for losing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

1. I find it very hard to believe that you know exactly how often guilds and their members play monthly and what everyone one of them does to practice and prepare for ATs....

Everyone knows everyone else.

Did you know that rawr stopped playing because their team couldn't be bothered to log on three times a month to get 20 qualifier points?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

2. I didn't say anything about evil smurfs much less know what or who you are referring to... "trimmed" caped guilds usually sold for trim or go full on pve threw selling invites to have the people that accomplished the trim make new guild with a new rating to repeat the process...

Mostly irrelevant. They're only playing a handful of matches before leaving the <1100 rating range, if they're laddering at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

to blame anet for "rewarding pve" with brand new campaigns is just short sighted, because pvp formats received new content threw new skills, the former use of heroes for those formats, themed maps, and guild halls ect ect... and arena net has always hosted tournaments... its just participation is at a all time low, so Anet will focus on what the majority of their fans have chosen and want from them.

PvP relies on a critical mass of players to function, and no matter what their intentions were, Anet did a lot of things to drive off PvPers.

Sadly enough, all those things that you so charitably credit Anet for bestowing upon PvP were things that contributed to its demise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

You have yet to explain why people choose pve and exclude pvp by choice when both are available.

Try this one on for size: people don't like losing, so they choose to do something where everyone can be a winner.

Sankt Hallvard · Dec 15, 2010, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Rationality.

Do you guys know what that means? We can generally assume that all humans act rationally. There are exceptions, some individual and some systemic, but in the large aggregate people act rationally. Basically this means that people choose strategies that are thought to best lead to their wanted result. If you are hungry you will look for the fastest and easiest way to satisfy your hunger. This will suffice as an explanation for the sake of the argument I'm about to make.

The thing I want to address here is the disagreement about people farming gvg for rewards and the existence of smurfing on zq days especially. Your observations are not necessary to prove or disprove the existence thereof, I can put forward a theoretical explanation that verifies the inherent problem(and existence) of smurfing/farming.

The first premise is that people really want the in-game rewards being offered. This does in fact not apply to myself and possibly a few other people, but most people are in fact incredibly obsessed by even tiny rewards being offered in game. Just log in the game and you will see people going to great lengths to work on their titles and amass wealth. I think it is a fairly safe assumption to say that people will strive to obtain in-game rewards.

The second premise is of course people being rational. With regards to gvg and ZQ this means that if people see the possible reward from doing gvg high enough they will partake on quest days.

People will make a (possibly subconscious) mathematical equation of how they will spend their time in GW to achieve the best results. Here they will not only consider rewards in terms of pure pixels but also in terms of "fun", "personal achievement", "social interaction". This distorts a purely technical assessment as some unrewarding formats(for example AB) might actually be popular because they give other rewards than the purely technical output. (Otherwise JQ/FA will reward higher faction in terms of minutes spent)

But for most people the in-game rewards being offered will affect how they spend their time. If the gap was even higher, say JQ offered 10 zkeys per victory, AB and other outposts would nearly empty for people rushing to JQ.

So naturally by adding ToT bags and ZQ rewards to gvg will add incentives to play gvg. In addition you are rewarded for winning so playing with good players and against bad players will increase your rewards. Furthermore you will get higher rewards by simply completing games faster, adding to the incentive to play with good players and against bad players.

Now adding up all this this means: Top players will be rewarded for smurfing on lower levels since they a) will win more games and b) will win faster, maximizing their payouts of ZQ benefits.

Of course there are counter-mechanisms, by playing at a lower rating you get more boring matches, less opposition, less sense of achievement and a possible sense of shame as you discourage noobs and possibly scare them away from the format for good.

I see a lot of arguments about how altruistic and nice the gvg'ers are on the one hand and how rude, elitist and selfish they are on the other hand. A lot of people argue that in order for gvg to be better these people need to change their attitudes. Forget this notion right now! It is human to be human, we celebrate self-interest in most parts of the world as this is thought to create the biggest surplus in a market economy. Thinking we should be able to create a sub-society of altruism and selflessness in a game is naive to say the least.

The only way to fix this apparent problem is to start by acknowledging it: YES, people have incentives to smurf on ZQ days. YES, this drives people away and demotivates people. The question is is there a systemic fix that can reward people for playing at their level, ie. not smurf. Is there a way to entice more people to play gvg and perhaps more importantly to keep them motivated to continue playing.

There have been some good suggestions in this thread but usually they drown in the clamor for ToT bags and pointless bickering about whether smurfing happens or not.

And btw, if you had the stamina to read all this I have something uplifting to tell you: What I just told you about creating system incentives isn't limited to GW. In fact about all the problems we have in the world today can be fixed by creating or modifying systems and how they reward behaviour.

Anon-e-mouse · Dec 15, 2010, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by infi

Btw, rank discrimination applies only for HA

Oh yeah you're just so right.. and all the GvG guilds asking for Glad, or Champion 3+ are just a figment of my imagination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by infi

Dont try to make people idiots.

I don't even have to try, you're doing fine on your own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by infi

there are so many ways how to check your skill. You will never pass a test if you are terrible.

HA Rank is not a true 'test' as to get rank, your only recourse now is to grind, grind, grind, grind PUG's for a months. No testing, just sheer grind, coupled with lots of failing.

infi · Dec 15, 2010, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon-e-mouse

grind, grind, grind, grind PUG's for a months. No testing, just sheer grind, coupled with lots of failing.

This is where you are wrong. Don't PUG. Never. And show me any good guild which is looking for members by asking them titles.

If a leader of any guild isn't an idiot he will give you a tryout once of couse IF you will show him that you arn't bad. It just depends where you are looking for.

Some tips:

- Learn the basis for GvG
- Master your role (midline, frontline or backline)
- Learn tactics from observer for your role
- Use guru lfg section, RA or even HA
- Be nice

If i would ask someone to join his guild i would tell him smth like that:

Sup man. I want to get a tryout for your guild. I play frontliner. I know how to call and kill stuff. I play any type of frontliner and aim for the first caller spot. I played for[list of your prev guilds with their top results]. Thanks.

- Don't ask to join top guilds. People won't reply anyway. Dont waste your time.